Building an Innovative Career in Internal Audit

00:00:02 The IIA

The Institute of Internal Auditors presents All Things Internal Audit.

00:00:06 The IIA

In this companion episode to Internal Auditor Magazine's Most Likely to Innovate article, Adrian Romero talks with emerging leaders Ashley Marone and Nisha Nair about building careers shaped by innovation, curiosity, and continuous improvement.

00:00:22 The IIA

Plus, they break down why innovation doesn't require a total overhaul, showing how starting small and speaking up can turn good ideas into real change.

00:00:33 Adrian Romero

Well, pleasure to be here.

00:00:34 Adrian Romero

I'm here with Nisha Nair and Ashley Morrone.

00:00:38 Adrian Romero

We've got some good topics to talk about today.

00:00:42 Adrian Romero

some emerging leaders from the IIA who've had a career in internal audit and beyond and how their careers have spanned out since they started since college, university.

00:00:52 Adrian Romero

And it's going to be a good discussion.

00:00:54 Adrian Romero

So looking forward to it.

00:00:55 Adrian Romero

And maybe we just get started in when you first started internal audit, right?

00:01:01 Adrian Romero

And did you imagine your career looking anything like it does, Ashley, Nisha?

00:01:07 Adrian Romero

What do you think?

00:01:08 Ashley Morrone

When I first started internal audit, I can say I would imagine my career being what it is today.

00:01:14 Ashley Morrone

I mean, yes and no, I feel.

00:01:16 Ashley Morrone

Yes, I felt like I would be a leader in this space.

00:01:20 Ashley Morrone

I always felt like from a young age, I kind of had a passion for leading initiatives, but I never knew what those initiatives would be.

00:01:29 Ashley Morrone

And I think a lot with the AI and where this career is transforming into, I never would have expected being involved in some of those AI and innovative and new

00:01:37 Ashley Morrone

technologies.

00:01:38 Ashley Morrone

So I really couldn't have predicted this path, but I'm really excited that I'm here and in this role and I feel like my past has provided me the opportunity and prepared me kind of to be a leader in this space and

00:01:53 Ashley Morrone

and continue to innovate with an internal audit.

00:01:56 Nisha Nair

I wouldn't have even thought I would work in internal audit because I started my career off in external audit with my accounting qualification.

00:02:03 Nisha Nair

And I had my whole career mapped up in my head that the classic CFO track, that I'm going to be a CFO.

00:02:08 Nisha Nair

But one thing led to the other and the risk consulting background.

00:02:12 Nisha Nair

It led me to show what this whole world is about, just beyond the financial lens.

00:02:18 Nisha Nair

And internal audit was one of them.

00:02:20 Nisha Nair

And I ended up right now

00:02:22 Nisha Nair

in the public sector internal audit, which honestly wasn't even on my radar back then.

00:02:27 Nisha Nair

And I know since then and now, the landscape has changed completely, but it feels exactly right for where I am right now.

00:02:34 Nisha Nair

Working in public sector is fulfilling in a different way.

00:02:38 Nisha Nair

It's not just about compliance.

00:02:40 Nisha Nair

It's about where your efforts are contributing towards in terms of safeguarding public trust and strengthening governance.

00:02:48 Nisha Nair

And also my perception about the whole profession has changed since when you started.

00:02:52 Nisha Nair

At start, I thought it's all about checks and balances, review processes, complete audit programs, issue report, follow up and done.

00:02:59 Nisha Nair

And with time it's evolved and you realize how much of A potential the IA function holds to steer the organization towards the right direction.

00:03:07 Nisha Nair

So I think there's a lot of change.

00:03:11 Adrian Romero

Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:03:13 Adrian Romero

And I think a lot of people probably resonate with the idea that they didn't think there'd be an internal audit if they're in it today.

00:03:19 Adrian Romero

I'm one of them as well.

00:03:20 Adrian Romero

I was a risk-minded person, but I didn't think this would be where I was at.

00:03:25 Adrian Romero

So now being 12 years into my career and what this looks like, it's scary for some people, especially from the AI front, right?

00:03:33 Adrian Romero

But I think it's an opportunity, right?

00:03:35 Adrian Romero

And that opportunity is one that we can all take advantage of.

00:03:38 Adrian Romero

And

00:03:39 Adrian Romero

And I'm seeing a lot of internal audit practices and people leading the way with internal audit through AI.

00:03:46 Adrian Romero

And I see that as a benefit, right?

00:03:48 Adrian Romero

Like how can we leverage these opportunities to better the function, the organization, our careers?

00:03:54 Adrian Romero

Were there any particular opportunities, whether it be AI, the like, or a mentor that really helped shape that career trajectory or where you wanted to go?

00:04:05 Ashley Morrone

Early in my career, I think that I made a good impression with the people I worked with and built those relationships and they trusted me from the beginning.

00:04:14 Ashley Morrone

But I think one opportunity stands out in my mind where

00:04:18 Ashley Morrone

both my managers had to go on maternity leave and I had to really kind of step up in more of a senior role and was kind of given that opportunity to lead and be in that elevated role.

00:04:28 Ashley Morrone

And I think I performed well in it.

00:04:30 Ashley Morrone

So both of my managers came back.

00:04:32 Ashley Morrone

They saw I had that capability to do that.

00:04:35 Ashley Morrone

And the partners also saw that.

00:04:37 Ashley Morrone

So I think that kind of gave me greater confidence in myself and they got greater confidence in me that I could actually perform at that level.

00:04:44 Ashley Morrone

So I think

00:04:45 Ashley Morrone

opportunities like that kind of give you the chance to show your skills and perform in something that you might have not felt comfortable doing it at your current level.

00:04:54 Nisha Nair

Surprisingly, I'm also on the same bandwagon.

00:04:57 Nisha Nair

I think mentors and supervisors do have an impact on me as well.

00:05:01 Nisha Nair

I share the same experience.

00:05:03 Nisha Nair

But coming to your question on a particular opportunity, I did try to think it does some single point that changed my whole career, but there isn't one single point for me.

00:05:13 Nisha Nair

What I've seen is I think it's a compound

00:05:14 Nisha Nair

understanding effect of two distinct things working together.

00:05:18 Nisha Nair

On personal side, I think my habit of saying yes to things, even when I didn't feel ready or confident, let's say this podcast, I just said yes to it.

00:05:27 Nisha Nair

And those kind of saying yes to moments when you even don't take confidence, I think that's helped over the way because I think they say like the growth lives right outside your comfort zone.

00:05:36 Nisha Nair

And that's one part to it.

00:05:38 Nisha Nair

The other part, which I also

00:05:40 Nisha Nair

share with Ashley is that this personal willingness is only complemented by having incredible supervisors and mentors in my journey.

00:05:47 Nisha Nair

Even from early on, as she also mentioned that it trusted me with real responsibilities, gave me the autonomy to run my own projects and backed it up with honest and constructive feedback.

00:05:59 Nisha Nair

And I think this mix of stepping up and having that psychological safety, you know, to actually run with your projects and to achieving some of my major milestones in life, be it recognition

00:06:09 Nisha Nair

as an emerging leader, or even going on to win the IA Excellence Award in the public sector category.

00:06:16 Nisha Nair

So looking back, I think this kind of leadership has shaped my view of how I would be as a leader as I continue across my career.

00:06:25 Adrian Romero

And what it sounds like is you were both given the opportunity and the space to do it safely.

00:06:32 Adrian Romero

Now,

00:06:33 Adrian Romero

Ashley, maybe in your situation, you could have had hiccups and you could have really been challenged and not succeeded per se in that situation.

00:06:41 Adrian Romero

It seems like you did, but you wouldn't know unless you got the opportunity.

00:06:45 Adrian Romero

You know what I mean?

00:06:45 Adrian Romero

And initially, you wouldn't have the opportunity to showcase your skills if your leaders weren't leading, if they were just managing and they were just saying, hey, let's get this work done and move forward.

00:06:57 Adrian Romero

I think that's the importance of leadership.

00:06:58 Adrian Romero

And I think

00:06:59 Adrian Romero

I mean, look, emerging leaders are on the podcast here today, right?

00:07:03 Adrian Romero

So it's only fitting, but I felt similarly too.

00:07:07 Adrian Romero

And I feel like we're just having similar conversations.

00:07:09 Adrian Romero

But the idea of someone enabling you, giving you the psychological safety, like you said, for example, is I think sometimes not valued enough.

00:07:20 Adrian Romero

A lot of folks are focusing on our technical and how do we do this well?

00:07:23 Adrian Romero

And can we build an agent?

00:07:25 Adrian Romero

Can we do X, Y, Z?

00:07:28 Adrian Romero

where sometimes you just need that human aspect to really connect with people.

00:07:33 Adrian Romero

And I think in our industry, sometimes that lacks.

00:07:36 Adrian Romero

And the more we could do it, the more you can lean forward into that makes you realize where your career can go if you're doing more and more of that.

00:07:44 Adrian Romero

So when you're innovating, when you're building your career, you have the human connection that's super important.

00:07:52 Adrian Romero

What is the innovation side of it that complements, that's alongside your human traits and aspects?

00:07:59 Adrian Romero

What does innovation look like to you all?

00:08:01 Ashley Morrone

Yeah, I think to me, innovation is really just continually looking for better ways to work.

00:08:07 Ashley Morrone

So whether it's making our process easier or more efficient, while also increasing the value and impact of what we're delivering to our clients, to our people, I think it doesn't

00:08:20 Ashley Morrone

always have to be this major transformation or this crazy thing.

00:08:24 Ashley Morrone

It could be something just identifying what's the challenge and how do we make it better.

00:08:29 Ashley Morrone

I think that's innovation in itself.

00:08:31 Ashley Morrone

Musha, what's your take?

00:08:32 Nisha Nair

I think very similar thoughts.

00:08:34 Nisha Nair

I think the minute we hear the word audit innovation, everyone automatically jumps straight to the thought of AI or some kind of technological deployment.

00:08:42 Nisha Nair

But I think let's be real, true innovation doesn't just

00:08:45 Nisha Nair

piece of software that you purchase.

00:08:47 Nisha Nair

I think real innovation is when internal audit is self-innovating.

00:08:51 Nisha Nair

So internal audit, where we sharpen our skills, not just to build our audit empire, but actually the main focus is to drive the business forward.

00:08:59 Nisha Nair

What an analogy that I have in a gaming concept is that classic or traditional audits are like playing solo Tetris game.

00:09:07 Nisha Nair

You wait for issues to drop from the sky, you clear them up, and then you wait for the next issue and sort it.

00:09:13 Nisha Nair

But I think we all need to learn towards playing

00:09:15 Nisha Nair

something like a Lego as a team, where we look at the messy piles of blocks and not as findings to clear, but as a tower to build.

00:09:22 Nisha Nair

But here's the catch.

00:09:24 Nisha Nair

The pile of blocks is worthless to someone who doesn't have the skills to build with it.

00:09:29 Nisha Nair

That's why skill set is very important and something that Ashley mentioned as well.

00:09:33 Nisha Nair

So we also need to develop and evolve and that continuous evolution is required.

00:09:38 Nisha Nair

I don't know if I would like to put it in another way.

00:09:40 Nisha Nair

It's like shifting from being an autopsy surgeon, funnily,

00:09:44 Nisha Nair

showing up after something's already gone wrong to being the strategic lookout on the ship, scanning for not just the icebergs that's going to hinder your progress or journey, but also spotting continents before everybody else does.

00:09:58 Nisha Nair

And that's what helps the organization.

00:10:00 Nisha Nair

So yeah, it's not just about improving yourself, but also working towards improving the organization.

00:10:06 Adrian Romero

And every organization has different values, right?

00:10:08 Adrian Romero

Some organizations value the efficiency more than they value the

00:10:13 Adrian Romero

aligned to the objective or they value bottom line or top line enablement, right?

00:10:18 Adrian Romero

There's lots of different things.

00:10:19 Adrian Romero

And so it's interesting about finding a career in the organization that aligns with what you want to push forward as well.

00:10:26 Adrian Romero

A lot of people are doing that too.

00:10:28 Adrian Romero

So when it comes to these innovation tools, like you said, it's not always AI, but seeing that it is the hot topic of conversation day in, day out, I know, Ashley, you've developed some enabled tools

00:10:43 Adrian Romero

What was that problem?

00:10:44 Adrian Romero

What were you originally trying to solve?

00:10:45 Adrian Romero

What was that end result?

00:10:48 Adrian Romero

How did that go?

00:10:49 Adrian Romero

I'm sure people would love to hear what those challenges look like and how you solved it.

00:10:56 Ashley Morrone

I think we really just started with, we know AI is a big thing.

00:11:00 Ashley Morrone

Like how can we use it in our work?

00:11:03 Ashley Morrone

And ultimately AI is known to help making things more efficient.

00:11:06 Ashley Morrone

So how can we develop tools that make our people work more efficient?

00:11:10 Ashley Morrone

And a lot of the times it's looking at those mundane tasks and those repetitive tasks that are time consuming, that really don't require maybe that much thought or critical thinking, but it's more of just an admin task.

00:11:23 Ashley Morrone

And

00:11:23 Ashley Morrone

One thing that came to our mind is a lot of our clients, they like planning memos and planning memos when we're developing those, they are taken from a bunch of different documents that already exist, whether it's the risk assessment, whether it's any of our background documents, whether it's the policy.

00:11:37 Ashley Morrone

So usually before AI auditor would look through all those documents and put that document together.

00:11:43 Ashley Morrone

Now that for like a new client can take quite some time.

00:11:47 Ashley Morrone

It could take an hour or two.

00:11:49 Ashley Morrone

And

00:11:50 Ashley Morrone

you would do that for every audit.

00:11:52 Ashley Morrone

So it could be lots of hours on this just administrative task that you're not really critical thinking, you're not really applying human judgment, you're really just getting a document together that the client wants to see.

00:12:02 Ashley Morrone

So we thought this was a perfect potential opportunity to use an AI tool to gather that information from the different documents for us.

00:12:09 Ashley Morrone

And that is a tool we developed.

00:12:11 Ashley Morrone

So ultimately, you upload all the documents that you typically would use to develop this document.

00:12:17 Ashley Morrone

And it gives you a great starting point.

00:12:18 Ashley Morrone

Now, it doesn't just create a great product all by itself.

00:12:21 Ashley Morrone

You do need to have that review in place.

00:12:23 Ashley Morrone

You need to have that human in the loop to review and make sure, because there might be some context that you know as a provider that AI doesn't know.

00:12:31 Ashley Morrone

But it really

00:12:32 Ashley Morrone

does give a great starting point and it does save at least 50% of the time that it takes for an average auditor to create these documents.

00:12:40 Ashley Morrone

So one, it was a time saver and two, it just also created formatting consistencies and also consistent document that we're providing to all of our clients across the board.

00:12:51 Ashley Morrone

So it was one of the first pilot opportunities I had the opportunity to work on.

00:12:56 Ashley Morrone

I think some of the pain points probably are the implementation.

00:12:59 Ashley Morrone

I feel like that's always a pain point of

00:13:02 Ashley Morrone

people learning a new tool and having to adjust and making sure people are using it.

00:13:08 Ashley Morrone

I think we're still working on that, but it has been a time saver and it really has allowed our team to then, instead of working on these mundane tasks, they're able to spend their time more on the analysis and professional judgment and the higher value work and the reason that they're really here for their auditor judgment.

00:13:26 Ashley Morrone

So

00:13:27 Ashley Morrone

That's been my experience with AI.

00:13:28 Ashley Morrone

And we're continuing to build things here at Crow.

00:13:31 Ashley Morrone

And I'm also part of this team that we're developing more tools, not just in the planning, but in the delivery and the reporting.

00:13:37 Ashley Morrone

So really excited to be a part of those initiatives and keep the AI spirit moving forward.

00:13:43 Adrian Romero

A lot of people think that, hey, let's just build this.

00:13:45 Adrian Romero

It's quick and easy.

00:13:46 Adrian Romero

And yes, it's much quicker than it used to be.

00:13:48 Adrian Romero

But there are some obstacles to it, right?

00:13:50 Adrian Romero

And as you keep doing more and more of it,

00:13:53 Adrian Romero

you find that you can easily overcome them because you've learned from the past.

00:13:58 Adrian Romero

And whether it be vibe coding to create things or whether it be finding the biggest ROI area and collaborating with other folks to build what it is instead of doing it just yourself, there's so many opportunities out there with it now.

00:14:12 Adrian Romero

Now, I did read an interesting article recently where leadership is not seeing, let's say, bottom line or top line changes with the enablement of AI.

00:14:23 Adrian Romero

But I think that's where your point is right.

00:14:25 Adrian Romero

You're able to now change your focus to those high value areas.

00:14:32 Adrian Romero

And I also think that it's not just like adding a tool, right?

00:14:35 Adrian Romero

It's also you have to change a process and how your business works and operates.

00:14:41 Adrian Romero

And so I think AI is through the internal audit function can be a catalyst for that.

00:14:47 Adrian Romero

It's not just here's a tool.

00:14:48 Adrian Romero

It's also here's a tool and this is the process that we're shifting, which is not easy to shift, as you mentioned.

00:14:56 Adrian Romero

Nisha, you've worked on improving your follow-up system through user-driven enhancements.

00:15:02 Adrian Romero

What's that taught you about innovation and continuous improvement in a practical sense?

00:15:08 Nisha Nair

There are a couple of things actually in the context of user-driven enhancement.

00:15:12 Nisha Nair

I would say when you deploy a new feature, people think that positive feedback is great, but that's just something that you get at a snapshot of time.

00:15:19 Nisha Nair

As you know, we are all human beings and our behavior is not.

00:15:22 Nisha Nair

static.

00:15:23 Nisha Nair

What feels valuable today is going to be irrelevant tomorrow.

00:15:26 Nisha Nair

And I think that the only way to stay ahead of this particular decay that you experience is you need to question yourself, even if your solutions or whatever you produce or help your departments is successful or not.

00:15:40 Nisha Nair

And this should be done even before your users ask you that can please change this or can you please enhance these.

00:15:46 Nisha Nair

But for this, there is one particular question that I always use or which I keep coming back to.

00:15:50 Nisha Nair

It's just in three words.

00:15:51 Nisha Nair

What's the wow?

00:15:53 Nisha Nair

It forces me to check, are we actually adding value here?

00:15:56 Nisha Nair

What could be better?

00:15:58 Nisha Nair

What's quietly holding us back?

00:16:00 Nisha Nair

So bottom line is, just like all of us think, innovation isn't just a destination.

00:16:05 Nisha Nair

It's going to be a journey of continuous evolution.

00:16:08 Nisha Nair

We need to focus on keeping on improving ourselves, but also to reach that higher standards of excellence every time.

00:16:15 Nisha Nair

Today's innovation is going to be tomorrow's baseline, as we see with even technology.

00:16:19 Nisha Nair

So the only way to keep moving with this

00:16:21 Nisha Nair

environment is for us to keep moving with it.

00:16:24 Nisha Nair

I think the harder part that I've experienced or learned is we have to be willing to treat our own work as an experiment rather than a monument.

00:16:32 Nisha Nair

So that means it could also be that we need to be courageous enough to discard something that we are really proud of and in order to build something superior for us.

00:16:42 Nisha Nair

So clinging on to the past is not going to work even if there's a sunk cost associated with it because excellence quietly decays underneath us.

00:16:50 Nisha Nair

So I think

00:16:51 Nisha Nair

It's just got to be evolution.

00:16:53 Adrian Romero

Look, I think there's a lot of egos around the world and I think we need to put it to the side.

00:16:59 Adrian Romero

And I agree.

00:17:00 Adrian Romero

It's like the psychological safety you mentioned, right?

00:17:02 Adrian Romero

If you don't have the space to fail and say it's okay to fail, then we're not going to be able to innovate and be the excellent innovators we want to be through our careers and through our functions and Florida business at the end of the day, right?

00:17:16 Adrian Romero

So

00:17:17 Adrian Romero

100% agree with that.

00:17:18 Adrian Romero

That's spot on.

00:17:20 Adrian Romero

I think your approach to AI has been, you know, kind of start small.

00:17:23 Adrian Romero

Let's get, you know, user-driven enhancements, learn continuously and scale.

00:17:28 Adrian Romero

What's that look like in practice outside of what you just mentioned?

00:17:33 Nisha Nair

So when I said starting small, I don't mean thinking small.

00:17:37 Nisha Nair

We also thought big, just like all of us do, looking at the big picture, trying to identify possible use cases that we can deploy all across our audit lifecycle.

00:17:46 Nisha Nair

But we did have a clear vision in mind that we want to see how our internal audit would be as an AI driven internal audit function.

00:17:54 Nisha Nair

But the difference that we had is in the approach.

00:17:57 Nisha Nair

So instead of building massive systems from scratch,

00:18:00 Nisha Nair

every thought of taking opportunistic route.

00:18:03 Nisha Nair

That is basically trying what we already have in place, testing it in real time and making the progress fast.

00:18:09 Nisha Nair

Some people are fond of cloud, some of ChatGPT and so on.

00:18:13 Nisha Nair

And I don't think that it's about finding one particular tool.

00:18:17 Nisha Nair

It's about finding the right combination of tools that work for you.

00:18:20 Nisha Nair

It's like opening a fridge and trying to cook with what's already available there instead of, you know, waiting to grow your ingredients from scratch.

00:18:28 Nisha Nair

You move fast, you never get stuck

00:18:30 Nisha Nair

in a deployment paralysis.

00:18:32 Nisha Nair

And when it comes to deployment, we always look for that killer combination that I would say.

00:18:37 Nisha Nair

It's like low risk areas, high efficiency for the team, and maximum value for the organization.

00:18:43 Nisha Nair

So if you're able to find that sweet spot for any particular use case that we have, we go ahead with it.

00:18:49 Nisha Nair

And the goal is not always to build or create multiple reports faster.

00:18:53 Nisha Nair

It's about, as Ashley mentioned, we need to automate those repetitive grunt work.

00:18:57 Nisha Nair

So actually, us auditors can

00:19:00 Nisha Nair

focus on those areas where we actually need to use your human skills, professional skepticism or critical judgment.

00:19:07 Nisha Nair

And when I talk about learning continuously, it simply means just getting hands-on with the tools, running fast feedback loops and having the humility to drop what isn't working and pivoting quickly.

00:19:20 Nisha Nair

And scaling responsibility is something that all organizations are, I believe, doing.

00:19:25 Nisha Nair

It means every deployment needs to be tested rigorously before it is trusted.

00:19:30 Nisha Nair

All this while making sure that we also sharpen our skills and our team's skills at every step of this journey.

00:19:37 Nisha Nair

So this is in summary what I mean by start small, learn continuously and scale responsibly.

00:19:43 Adrian Romero

And look, I think we as functions and individuals in our careers, we can build things ourselves as well, right?

00:19:50 Adrian Romero

like you mentioned, but we could also make the decision, hey, look, the investment here, once you get from the small wins and start growing, maybe there are certain things that you think you'd be really good at, but maybe it's even better just to lease it or to buy it, right?

00:20:04 Adrian Romero

And instead of create it sometimes too.

00:20:07 Adrian Romero

I think there are still going to be situations where that makes sense.

00:20:11 Adrian Romero

It's just you have to do the ROI analysis and truly see if it's worth it.

00:20:15 Adrian Romero

But look, there's so many intangibles that you learn through going through the start small idea, right?

00:20:22 Adrian Romero

Think big, but start small and work your way.

00:20:25 Adrian Romero

At Kaufman Ross and my firm, we've been building agents, but we've been determining, all right, where do we build or buy?

00:20:31 Adrian Romero

And the learning from building has been tremendous.

00:20:35 Adrian Romero

But there are certain things, and we've built things like automated testing, right?

00:20:39 Adrian Romero

And agentic testing to where it is actually running without us touching until we have human in the loop moments and pushing it forward.

00:20:47 Adrian Romero

But there are certain times where it makes sense to go to a provider that has said, hey, like these different software companies or whatnot,

00:20:56 Adrian Romero

We've perfected this.

00:20:57 Adrian Romero

And people are saying that it's going to be in that niche.

00:21:00 Adrian Romero

Like it is going to be, hey, they're going to do one thing and they're going to do it really well as software organizations.

00:21:05 Adrian Romero

I'm curious to see how that pans out.

00:21:07 Adrian Romero

What would you say to an early career internal auditor, seeing all of this change, seeing all of this, and frankly, some of them might not know what internal audit is yet that we're talking to about this.

00:21:19 Adrian Romero

But all this change,

00:21:21 Adrian Romero

What would you say to one that sees an opportunity to improve something in their function or their organization, but doesn't feel like they're more senior, like they have a voice?

00:21:31 Adrian Romero

What's your way to navigate that?

00:21:33 Ashley Morrone

I feel like the newer generation or the auditors just getting started are the best people to speak up right now because they're the ones that have probably used AI before any of us have.

00:21:45 Ashley Morrone

They are more technologically savvy and they probably have

00:21:50 Ashley Morrone

great ideas and they should speak up.

00:21:53 Ashley Morrone

I think a good idea really could come from anyone.

00:21:54 Ashley Morrone

It doesn't matter what level you are.

00:21:57 Ashley Morrone

At the same time, I think it's important, like we were saying earlier, to build those intentional and strong relationships so that those people feel comfortable sharing those ideas with the people above them and showing that they bring value to at any level.

00:22:11 Ashley Morrone

It could be a staff, it doesn't matter.

00:22:13 Ashley Morrone

It could be an intern.

00:22:14 Ashley Morrone

I think it's important to know that they don't need to have every detail figured out.

00:22:18 Ashley Morrone

They don't have to have the ultimate solution.

00:22:20 Ashley Morrone

But if they have an idea that they could explain why the idea is important, the opportunity that's there, why it matters, and how it can make things better, I think that's so important.

00:22:32 Ashley Morrone

And they should feel empowered to share those ideas with people above them because

00:22:36 Ashley Morrone

They are the next generation and they are the ones that are going to be the future leaders.

00:22:39 Ashley Morrone

So I think giving them the opportunity and the courage to speak would be like one of my advice to all the internal auditors out there.

00:22:48 Nisha Nair

Looking back, I think I was that kind of person, second guessing whether it was my place to say something or whether I'd come across it overstepping.

00:22:56 Nisha Nair

And honestly, I think culture also varies across geographies, across organizations.

00:23:00 Nisha Nair

So there's no single right answer for me.

00:23:03 Nisha Nair

But if I have to go back and tell myself something, I would say, if you don't say it, someone else is eventually going to do it and you'll be the one kicking yourself for staying quiet.

00:23:12 Nisha Nair

And I think everybody would agree that in this corporate world, credit doesn't go to somebody who thinks of an opportunity, but it's rather to those who have the courage to say it out loud.

00:23:24 Nisha Nair

So

00:23:25 Nisha Nair

I think sometimes it's not just about whether you speak, it's the how.

00:23:31 Nisha Nair

The delivery matters as much as the idea.

00:23:34 Nisha Nair

Also, Ashley mentioned people who are earlier in the career, especially now, they're in the right position.

00:23:39 Nisha Nair

And when you are up there just starting up your career, nobody expects you to be perfect.

00:23:44 Nisha Nair

So I think the best thing to do is just start by voicing it with your direct supervisors, taking their feedback on board.

00:23:50 Nisha Nair

Over time, I think they would develop

00:23:54 Nisha Nair

what I call, I think, 3 M's, if I can recollect.

00:23:57 Nisha Nair

It's like saying the right message in the right manner at the right moment.

00:24:02 Nisha Nair

And that's something that early career professionals will learn over time.

00:24:06 Nisha Nair

But you can't learn the right manner without practicing the right message first.

00:24:10 Nisha Nair

So the bottom line is just speak up.

00:24:13 Nisha Nair

Don't worry about the consequence.

00:24:14 Nisha Nair

You can always learn over time.

00:24:17 Adrian Romero

And look, there, like you said, geographically, organizationally,

00:24:21 Adrian Romero

Every culture is different.

00:24:23 Adrian Romero

And so you gotta know those 3 M's.

00:24:26 Adrian Romero

I mean, look, I would even say to them, choose an organization where you have that ability, right?

00:24:31 Adrian Romero

I think through your interview process, ask those questions.

00:24:33 Adrian Romero

That's what I do.

00:24:34 Adrian Romero

It's one of the things that I highly value and not just from a leader to the team, but I think more broadly to where I ask the question, are your associates or seniors

00:24:46 Adrian Romero

able to speak up when they want to.

00:24:48 Adrian Romero

That's my cultural question that I ask in interviews.

00:24:51 Adrian Romero

And look, I've been at RSM, my old firm, and the team was phenomenal.

00:24:56 Adrian Romero

They enabled me to do that from day one.

00:24:58 Adrian Romero

I felt like one of the youngest people saying things, but it's because I truly value continuous improvement.

00:25:05 Adrian Romero

I think every day we get better and better.

00:25:08 Adrian Romero

And if the organization doesn't align with you on those and you find value in that, then maybe you should think about where you are.

00:25:15 Adrian Romero

Or if you're really struggling with that, challenge yourself, challenge the people with you.

00:25:19 Adrian Romero

And if they're not receptive, you have those discussions that it's concerning to you, right?

00:25:24 Adrian Romero

Or enable that progression in your career.

00:25:27 Adrian Romero

Because if you can speak up, whether others like it or not, if you can speak up and you're doing the right thing with the three M's, I mean, look, you're going to be successful.

00:25:36 Adrian Romero

And I would also say, not just speak up about a problem, but also offer the solution.

00:25:42 Adrian Romero

And say, it's not just, hey, this is a problem, it's all right, but this is how I believe we can go forward to fix it and actually enable that solutioning compared to just bringing up the problem or challenge.

00:25:55 Adrian Romero

That's super critical.

00:25:57 Adrian Romero

I think I've heard that so many times from different leaders of how much they value that.

00:26:01 Adrian Romero

So as we wrap up here, if you could give a future emerging leader one piece of advice, I think what we just said was probably pretty good advice.

00:26:10 Adrian Romero

But one piece of advice for building a career that creates change, what would that be?

00:26:15 Ashley Morrone

Going off of kind of what we were saying, really just always looking at how can we make things better?

00:26:20 Ashley Morrone

How can we improve?

00:26:22 Ashley Morrone

I think once you figure out how, then actually don't just say it.

00:26:27 Ashley Morrone

Like we said, let's act on it.

00:26:29 Ashley Morrone

And I don't think we should limit the improvement to our own work.

00:26:33 Ashley Morrone

We should share with the organization, with our team.

00:26:37 Ashley Morrone

so others can benefit as well.

00:26:38 Ashley Morrone

And I think that's really how future emerging leaders create that change because it's not just within themselves, but they radiate it out to the organization.

00:26:46 Ashley Morrone

And I think it doesn't just need to be an innovative idea.

00:26:49 Ashley Morrone

Those are amazing and we still should encourage those, but it's also about making sure those ideas are actionable items and making sure you're bringing others alongside you on the journey.

00:26:59 Ashley Morrone

I think that's the biggest piece of advice that I think would allow for career that creates change.

00:27:07 Nisha Nair

I actually echo Ashley's thoughts.

00:27:10 Nisha Nair

Earlier on in my career, I used to measure success in my career based on the quality of work that I deliver, the appreciation I get for my work, the outputs that I do.

00:27:19 Nisha Nair

But I think over time, I realized that leadership isn't just about what you deliver.

00:27:23 Nisha Nair

It's about the impact that you create in others.

00:27:26 Nisha Nair

So I think the piece of advice that I offer varies from person to person.

00:27:30 Nisha Nair

But I think at this point of time, my advice is to invest in building relationships.

00:27:35 Nisha Nair

creating, like collaborating across functions, across borders, beyond your immediate job description, staying as a lifelong learner, not just in terms of technical skills, but also in terms of human skills.

00:27:49 Nisha Nair

You can develop those as well-being adaptable, staying curious, because that's what drives changes most of the time, and build trust in everything that you do, because as auditors,

00:28:01 Nisha Nair

You want people to trust you.

00:28:02 Nisha Nair

And all of these, I think as a combination is going to compound over time across the career.

00:28:08 Nisha Nair

So I know it's not one advice, it's like a combination of those, but I think, yeah, that should help in bringing about that change.

00:28:15 Adrian Romero

And you hit on curiosity, and I think building curiosity or having it and building trust to me would be what I would say, because

00:28:25 Adrian Romero

In doing so, you're building those relationships.

00:28:27 Adrian Romero

You're having real conversations with people.

00:28:29 Adrian Romero

You're understanding what people do, why they do it, what it means to them, right?

00:28:34 Adrian Romero

It's forming those genuine relationships.

00:28:38 Adrian Romero

That's gonna go a long way for people.

00:28:40 Adrian Romero

It really is.

00:28:41 Adrian Romero

And you're gonna learn much more if you look at it that way.

00:28:44 Adrian Romero

I know it's challenging for some to get out and have a lot of those conversations, but I agree that human aspect, the challenge of status quo, the curiosity as to what do I need to do better?

00:28:58 Adrian Romero

How can I improve the broader whole?

00:29:00 Adrian Romero

All those things are going to add value to people as they grow through their career, especially if you start as an associate or staff or whatnot and grow through leader of your practice or of your function.

00:29:13 Adrian Romero

Look, I think today's discussion has been great.

00:29:15 Adrian Romero

I think our conversation has been thought provoking and hopefully enabled others.

00:29:21 Adrian Romero

I think empowerment is an important factor here to feel like they could do the same, right?

00:29:26 Adrian Romero

We were all in their shoes and nothing is too obscure to discuss or to see.

00:29:33 Adrian Romero

We've seen a lot, us three, I'm sure, in our time and from super simple to super complex situations.

00:29:41 Adrian Romero

from innovation that's completely disrupting what we're doing day in and day out in the best of ways to the human touch and feel that really puts an impact on your team and the people surrounding you.

00:29:56 Adrian Romero

So appreciate you both.

00:29:58 Adrian Romero

Thank you, Nisha.

00:29:59 Adrian Romero

Thank you, Ashley, for the conversation.

00:30:02 Adrian Romero

I hope everyone enjoyed.

00:30:03 Nisha Nair

Thank you so much for having us.

00:30:04 Nisha Nair

It was lovely to chat.

00:30:06 Nisha Nair

And I think opportunities such as these helped you to not pause and reflect back on what you've gone through and also help others also springboard their career.

00:30:14 Nisha Nair

And I hope listeners to this podcast also enjoy it as much as we did.

00:30:18 Nisha Nair

Thank you so much.

00:30:21 The IIA

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00:30:24 The IIA

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00:30:27 The IIA

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00:30:31 The IIA

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