00:00:02 The IIA
The Institute of Internal Auditors presents All Things Internal Audit.
00:00:06 The IIA
In this episode, Christina Brune sits down with Randolph Sergent, Executive Vice President and General Counsel at CareFirst BlueCross BlueShield, to discuss why he decided to pursue the Certified Internal Auditor designation, despite spending his career in the legal profession.
00:00:22 The IIA
Sergent shares how earning the CIA helped him better understand audit planning, enterprise risk,
00:00:28 The IIA
and the role of internal audit within an organization.
00:00:31 The IIA
The conversation also explores leadership, continuous learning, professional development, and why executives should invest in understanding the function they support.
00:00:42 Christina Brune
Randy, welcome to the podcast.
00:00:44 Christina Brune
We are so excited to have you here today.
00:00:47 Randolph Sergent
Good morning.
00:00:48 Christina Brune
I understand that your background is law and not internal auditing.
00:00:54 Christina Brune
So I was curious if you could just tell us a little bit about your career journey and why you felt it was important to pursue the CIA?
00:01:03 Randolph Sergent
Absolutely.
00:01:04 Randolph Sergent
I am the general counsel for CareFirst Blue Cross Blue Shield.
00:01:07 Randolph Sergent
So I have been a practicing lawyer for 25 years now.
00:01:11 Randolph Sergent
I was doing the math.
00:01:12 Randolph Sergent
It's longer than I would like to admit sometimes.
00:01:16 Randolph Sergent
In that role, I've had a number of, like I've been a firm counsel, I've been government counsel, I've risen through the ranks of being a corporate counsel.
00:01:23 Randolph Sergent
But as you stepped into the general counsel role, our role is formulated.
00:01:27 Randolph Sergent
It's perhaps more similar to a chief legal officer.
00:01:30 Randolph Sergent
I have audit, the compliance teams, the government relations teams, a team we call regulatory operations, which is sort of regulator facing responses to audits or external inquiries, all under me in addition to the legal department.
00:01:45 Randolph Sergent
And to be a good leader, you need to understand how all of the teams that work for you do what they do, why they do what they do.
00:01:54 Randolph Sergent
Otherwise, you're not going to be able to adequately support them, and you're not going to be able to adequately hold them to account.
00:02:00 Randolph Sergent
So I try to be a good coach when coaching is warranted.
00:02:04 Randolph Sergent
I try to push folks towards excellence, and without understanding those areas, you're not going to be very effective at it.
00:02:12 Randolph Sergent
So I decided I needed to know more about audit, having worked with auditors for years.
00:02:17 Randolph Sergent
I hadn't actually been required to delve into, beyond reading the reports, how are you a good auditor?
00:02:22 Randolph Sergent
What makes excellence in the audit field?
00:02:24 Randolph Sergent
And I thought the CIA...
00:02:27 Randolph Sergent
examination was a way for me to understand the field in a comprehensive way, as opposed to just reading some books.
00:02:34 Randolph Sergent
I could hold myself to account, I could see the field from end to end, and I could ask all kinds of questions of our existing audit team that they weren't expecting then.
00:02:42 Randolph Sergent
I also love to learn new things.
00:02:44 Randolph Sergent
My theory is if you're not getting better, you're getting worse, because nothing stays the same from moment to moment.
00:02:50 Randolph Sergent
So I would advocate everyone for their career planning to look for what is the next stage of growth that you should be, not just
00:02:57 Randolph Sergent
advancement in terms of position, but growth that you should be looking towards.
00:03:00 Christina Brune
Wonderful, well said.
00:03:02 Christina Brune
So I'm curious what you learned about internal audit standards.
00:03:08 Christina Brune
What did you learn about the profession in general that you didn't know going into this process?
00:03:14 Randolph Sergent
I think there's sort of a number of layers.
00:03:16 Randolph Sergent
I knew the basics
00:03:18 Randolph Sergent
of what internal auditors do as they're working externally, right, with folks outside of the audit team.
00:03:23 Randolph Sergent
I didn't have a grasp on the planning.
00:03:26 Randolph Sergent
I didn't have a good grasp on how would you manage the overall scaling and collection and evaluation of risks when you develop the audit plan?
00:03:35 Randolph Sergent
or the need to do your quality reviews, or the other elements, I'd say, of the internal workings of how do you make your audit program effective as opposed to individual audits.
00:03:47 Randolph Sergent
So I had a sense of how to conduct individual audits, having worked with auditors on individual audits.
00:03:52 Randolph Sergent
So I'd say the biggest piece, there was a piece that resonated with me having run a legal department for many years.
00:04:00 Randolph Sergent
We are a audit and legal are similar.
00:04:03 Randolph Sergent
We are functions
00:04:05 Randolph Sergent
that are necessary to a company, but were not in the mainstream of operations, right?
00:04:11 Randolph Sergent
You are a set of professionals, you have clients that you must both press to make sure that they're doing the right thing and that you're, you know, you're holding to account to some extent, but also you're working with them and you're making sure that they're happy with your services.
00:04:25 Randolph Sergent
So I think the CIA does a very nice job of getting out that customer service proponent, that element to
00:04:33 Randolph Sergent
to the auditor's work.
00:04:34 Randolph Sergent
It definitely is true with the lawyers too.
00:04:36 Randolph Sergent
And the way to keep your customers happy is to be excellent at your job, not necessarily to tell them good things, right?
00:04:41 Randolph Sergent
It's to give them the bad news when they need the bad news, but to do it effectively and to communicate well.
00:04:46 Randolph Sergent
And I think that was something from the CIA exam.
00:04:48 Randolph Sergent
I was very pleased to see that emphasis.
00:04:50 Christina Brune
Excellent.
00:04:51 Christina Brune
Some of the things you mentioned that you learned about audit planning and quality are really over the CAE's level.
00:04:58 Christina Brune
So I'm wondering if
00:05:01 Christina Brune
you're pursuing the CAA, what you learned has had any impact on your communications with your CAE?
00:05:09 Randolph Sergent
It has.
00:05:09 Randolph Sergent
I'm the executive sponsor for the audit and compliance committee at CareFirst.
00:05:13 Randolph Sergent
We've assigned each of the board committees as a sort of ELT, executive leadership team member, who is sort of the sponsor for that, helps coordinate and facilitate it.
00:05:22 Randolph Sergent
Our chief audit executive reports to the audit and compliance committee with a dotted line to me.
00:05:28 Randolph Sergent
So a big part of the impetus was, if I'm responsible for the audit team, at least as a dotted line administrative level, I'm able to have, I would say, much deeper conversations.
00:05:39 Randolph Sergent
with the CAE than I otherwise would because I can press for is this element of the program or is this the most effective approach or why did you do it this way?
00:05:48 Randolph Sergent
But also the CAE can explain to me why he or she needs a certain number of resources in an area and I would be able to understand that more easily and then advocate why are they doing what they are doing to the rest of the leadership team.
00:06:04 Randolph Sergent
And so because of my role in the middle there, I mean, not interposed between the audit committee and the CAE, but for administrative purposes and facilitation, I'm often going back and forth to make sure everyone gets on the same page.
00:06:16 Randolph Sergent
And it's enabled me to be an advocate also for is the chief audit executive doing a good job?
00:06:22 Randolph Sergent
If so, it's my job to help them, you know, make sure that is recognized throughout the company.
00:06:27 Randolph Sergent
And if they're not, it's my job to work with the audit committee to help them be satisfied and get a CAE that
00:06:34 Randolph Sergent
they are satisfied with.
00:06:35 Randolph Sergent
And I'm actually in the process now of trying to lead the hiring of a new CAE.
00:06:42 Randolph Sergent
We just lost hours.
00:06:43 Randolph Sergent
He went to, he was excellent, but he went to an opportunity at a larger company.
00:06:48 Randolph Sergent
So I'm actually also trying to put, I'm going to have to put those skills to work to help the audit committee come up with a new chief audit executive.
00:06:56 Christina Brune
Sure.
00:06:57 Christina Brune
Actually, I can see that being quite valuable that you know what you're looking for now in your next CAE, right?
00:07:03 Randolph Sergent
Yes.
00:07:04 Randolph Sergent
That's very much my hope.
00:07:06 Randolph Sergent
We're just starting the process.
00:07:07 Christina Brune
Great.
00:07:08 Christina Brune
I'm sure many other CAAs would love to have an advocate like you understanding their world and advocating for our resources and making sure that the quality program is in place and supported.
00:07:18 Randolph Sergent
I hope so.
00:07:18 Randolph Sergent
I also might ask them the questions that they were hoping that I wouldn't ask.
00:07:24 Christina Brune
Right.
00:07:24 Christina Brune
Double edge, right?
00:07:25 Christina Brune
a lot.
00:07:26 Christina Brune
So can you tell me a little bit about your experience pursuing the CAE as a senior executive and balancing that with work and your daily job?
00:07:35 Randolph Sergent
I have three children who are all in their 20s.
00:07:38 Randolph Sergent
Like they're all in their mid to late 20s and they have jobs and they don't live in my house.
00:07:42 Randolph Sergent
So having gone through the raising children, I find myself with time in the evening to undertake projects that when you're younger,
00:07:50 Randolph Sergent
would be more of a burden.
00:07:51 Randolph Sergent
So I don't want to not recognize that fact for many folks who are in an audit department and looking at this.
00:07:56 Randolph Sergent
That it was a luxury that I very much appreciated and put to good use.
00:08:00 Randolph Sergent
But I got a study class.
00:08:03 Randolph Sergent
I would spend time on the weekends taking the practice tests, reading over the standards and the guidebooks.
00:08:10 Randolph Sergent
I think if you have
00:08:13 Randolph Sergent
good business, like a good business background, like I was immensely helped by the fact that many of the questions are tying what you do as an auditor to what the business is trying to accomplish and how the business works.
00:08:27 Randolph Sergent
So if you understand a strategic planning process and what is entailed in that for a business, it's going to be easier to, I'd say, dive in and say, well, what is the role of the audit team?
00:08:39 Randolph Sergent
in the strategic planning process, or what is the role of the audit team in finding, observing the risks that come out of, that are identified in the strategic planning process, is determining the best way to develop an audit plan.
00:08:51 Randolph Sergent
So it helped, I think, being a senior leader, that I was able to bring to bear all this information on how the company works.
00:08:58 Randolph Sergent
I think it would be more of a challenge for someone new
00:09:02 Randolph Sergent
To the audit field, but I'd say it's probably more rewarding if you're early in your career to go and learn those things before you have to, right, as opposed to wait twenty-five years just to introduce yourself to those ideas.
00:09:15 Randolph Sergent
You'll probably need to study harder because it'll be more unfamiliar to you, but there's a lot.
00:09:21 Randolph Sergent
in that test about how a corporation works that you need to put into your toolkit.
00:09:26 Randolph Sergent
And it will make you a better auditor.
00:09:28 Randolph Sergent
It's the exact same thing I have done for years with attorneys is to say, if you don't understand our client, if you don't understand the business plan or the direction or the threats to the industry, you're not going to give good legal advice.
00:09:40 Randolph Sergent
It's true for the compliance department and it's true for the auditors.
00:09:43 Randolph Sergent
We really need to understand the business and what the business needs to accomplish in order to be effective in our roles of making sure the business
00:09:51 Randolph Sergent
accomplishes it within the bounds, right?
00:09:54 Randolph Sergent
In a compliant way, in a risk managing way, or in a legal way.
00:10:00 Christina Brune
All right, excellent.
00:10:01 Christina Brune
Was there anything that surprised you during your studies?
00:10:06 Randolph Sergent
I'd say surprised is not the word, but I'd say the emphasis on customer service was perhaps not a surprise, but welcome, if that makes sense.
00:10:14 Randolph Sergent
I was like, once I started reading the materials and I saw how much they were focused on
00:10:19 Randolph Sergent
really working as a team member with other departments, it reinforced what I have seen in working externally when working with audit departments.
00:10:27 Randolph Sergent
The best, like it reinforced the behaviors that I had noticed just sort of organically as these are the best.
00:10:33 Randolph Sergent
The best auditors do this and the best auditors do that.
00:10:36 Randolph Sergent
And I thought the test was very well aligned with what my experience had been.
00:10:40 Randolph Sergent
The auditors who communicated most effectively or the auditors that understood the risks most really had been most effective in their roles.
00:10:48 Randolph Sergent
So
00:10:49 Randolph Sergent
I'd say perhaps not a surprise, but it was very welcome that I thought, I said, this test is testing, in my view, just from the outside, testing the right things for effectiveness.
00:10:58 Christina Brune
So people always want to know a little bit more about the study process, your routine, and how long it took you.
00:11:05 Christina Brune
talked a little bit about having the extra time in the evenings, but if you could tell us what your study process was like, how you tackled the different parts, the order, and how you did it.
00:11:16 Randolph Sergent
I spread it out over almost a year, maybe four months per exam, just to make sure that I had enough time.
00:11:22 Randolph Sergent
I was pretty methodical.
00:11:23 Randolph Sergent
I would sort of say, how much do I want to work through the materials in a week?
00:11:27 Randolph Sergent
and then leave time for review.
00:11:29 Randolph Sergent
I'd used the Becker's review course and they had some tools for calendaring how much time you spend on different tasks that were helpful.
00:11:36 Randolph Sergent
So I was very, I'd say methodical about it.
00:11:39 Randolph Sergent
I'd put in my time or I'm going to do so many practice questions today and I would do my questions and then go on with something else.
00:11:45 Randolph Sergent
And I think that worked very effectively.
00:11:47 Randolph Sergent
It was not a huge try to pile on study towards the end.
00:11:50 Randolph Sergent
It was more spread out your time over the four month periods because you're going to have to want to have to
00:11:57 Randolph Sergent
live the rest of your life.
00:11:58 Randolph Sergent
And if you have children, you're not going to want to forget them for an entire year.
00:12:02 Randolph Sergent
I think that's basically it, really.
00:12:04 Randolph Sergent
And most auditors, I think probably that's going to fit with their mindset, where it's a field where we're balancing our schedules and thinking in an orderly manner.
00:12:13 Christina Brune
Excellent.
00:12:14 Christina Brune
Yes.
00:12:14 Christina Brune
Well said.
00:12:15 Christina Brune
Was there a moment during your studies when something clicked for you or changed how you view internal audit and its role?
00:12:23 Randolph Sergent
I'd say it was around the audit planning because
00:12:26 Randolph Sergent
The enterprise risk element, the CIA does a nice job of going over the role of enterprise risk, which is not always in the audit department.
00:12:35 Randolph Sergent
I think currently in our in CareFirst, enterprise risk is in the financial team.
00:12:40 Randolph Sergent
Let's take under the financial team and we have to work with them to develop the plan.
00:12:44 Randolph Sergent
But this examination gave a view of how enterprise risk management works and how it fits with the audit team that's incredibly useful.
00:12:54 Randolph Sergent
And
00:12:55 Randolph Sergent
I think to most people in a company, enterprise risk is kind of this opaque function where people show up and they ask you to assign numerical categories to risks and a taxonomy of risk that you've never seen before.
00:13:06 Randolph Sergent
And then they might disappear for a while, and then they come back and they have a heat map.
00:13:10 Randolph Sergent
And it's, I'd say the thing that clicked for me was seeing how
00:13:15 Randolph Sergent
I know how it should work or how it can most effectively work and what the output from enterprise risk should be used for with the audit and compliance committee, with the audit plan, and elsewhere in the company.
00:13:29 Randolph Sergent
So I think that's for someone that wants to rise to the ranks of auditing, having that understanding, even if enterprise risk is not in your area,
00:13:39 Randolph Sergent
If you're a chief audit executive one day, you may want to make the case that it should be in your area.
00:13:43 Randolph Sergent
But if not, you'll certainly want to be working with that and hand in glove with that process.
00:13:50 Christina Brune
So how has earning the CIA changed the conversations that you have with others in your organization, the compliance committee and other executive leaders?
00:14:00 Christina Brune
It's.
00:14:01 Randolph Sergent
Probably not, for me, in my role, the earning of the CIA changing it.
00:14:05 Randolph Sergent
It's the underground, the basic understanding.
00:14:08 Randolph Sergent
of what audit should be doing, the confidence of saying, I know where, I know where the audit team can help out with this, right?
00:14:17 Randolph Sergent
Or I know that doesn't, I don't know that that's, you know, this proposal that you have is the most effective use of the audit team.
00:14:23 Randolph Sergent
Let's talk with them.
00:14:23 Randolph Sergent
I suspect this might be a better approach.
00:14:26 Randolph Sergent
or just giving the team encouragement for these are important enough issues.
00:14:31 Randolph Sergent
I know you're getting resistance.
00:14:32 Randolph Sergent
There's the path forward to getting those issues elevated.
00:14:35 Randolph Sergent
I'd say the general approach is understanding the area.
00:14:38 Randolph Sergent
I'm less worried about making a foot fault or proposing things that are nonsensical and we can get to the nub of what is the problem and how do we resolve it most effectively, I'd say, in those discussions.
00:14:51 Christina Brune
All right, excellent.
00:14:52 Christina Brune
So how did others in your organization react?
00:14:55 Christina Brune
I wonder if you motivated anybody else, gave somebody else the courage to pursue the CIA?
00:15:00 Randolph Sergent
I have been talking amongst about it with the audit team, and I think we're moving to a direction where it's been encouraged.
00:15:08 Randolph Sergent
It may in the future be sort of required, but even beyond the CIA, if you have the CIA and
00:15:15 Randolph Sergent
you're a mid-career auditor, are there other things that you should be looking at to develop?
00:15:19 Randolph Sergent
So I'd say not just the CIA exam, but looking at other certifications, other ways to sort of show that you're developing and growing in a career.
00:15:28 Randolph Sergent
As a, I guess now I'm a corporate executive.
00:15:31 Randolph Sergent
So one of the biggest things that I do is, including the audit team, we have about 215 people in our, we call it the corporate governance division.
00:15:40 Randolph Sergent
And they're all
00:15:42 Randolph Sergent
qualified professionals in compliance, audit, law, registered lobbyists, every one of them has a professional field and they're hired for their skill set.
00:15:52 Randolph Sergent
If you're in a company for five, 10 years, people start to assume they know everything that you can do.
00:15:57 Randolph Sergent
And when there's a chance to move up, there's always a bright and shiny person who comes from outside where you're just seeing the good parts of their resume and you're competing and you've been sitting in that chair for maybe the past five years and you've been with the company for 10.
00:16:10 Randolph Sergent
So I encourage
00:16:12 Randolph Sergent
all of my team members in their various fields, what do you need to go out?
00:16:16 Randolph Sergent
What do you need to know about the company?
00:16:17 Randolph Sergent
And what do you need to go out and burnish your credentials?
00:16:19 Randolph Sergent
I want to be able to feel certain that when I'm promoting you, I'm doing so because you've beaten the competition, because you can, you're as current as anybody out there.
00:16:28 Randolph Sergent
And I have great confidence that my team members are as good as anyone out there.
00:16:32 Randolph Sergent
But that I'd say continuous improvement or just continuous growth is something that I think perhaps using the CIA has helped to inspire people.
00:16:39 Randolph Sergent
Like I really mean it.
00:16:40 Randolph Sergent
I assign this to myself.
00:16:42 Randolph Sergent
as well as to everybody else.
00:16:44 Randolph Sergent
So I've had a number of lawyers getting certifications in privacy and the auditors.
00:16:50 Randolph Sergent
I'm making sure at budget time that each department is leaving enough money to help pay for people to take certifications and develop personal development plans.
00:16:59 Randolph Sergent
I'd say those are sort of where it shows up.
00:17:02 Christina Brune
Great.
00:17:02 Christina Brune
I mean, as a leader of your team, as an executive, what message do you think it sends that you are leading by this example?
00:17:11 Christina Brune
continuous learning.
00:17:12 Randolph Sergent
Yeah, I think that's it, that I'm not just making it up.
00:17:16 Randolph Sergent
I mean, I've tried telling people, explaining to people that if the budget cuts and I have to let you go, you need to have a backup plan.
00:17:22 Randolph Sergent
So get your certification for that reason.
00:17:24 Randolph Sergent
And they're like, no, you'd never let us go.
00:17:26 Randolph Sergent
It's like, okay, fine.
00:17:27 Randolph Sergent
At least I'm getting certifications.
00:17:29 Randolph Sergent
I'm serious about it.
00:17:29 Randolph Sergent
But no, it's hard, right?
00:17:31 Randolph Sergent
It's people have inertia.
00:17:33 Randolph Sergent
It's easy to start viewing your job as I'm doing excellent in my job.
00:17:37 Randolph Sergent
Then I go home to my family.
00:17:38 Randolph Sergent
Development can seem extra.
00:17:41 Randolph Sergent
right?
00:17:41 Randolph Sergent
I've been involved with the Maryland Bar Association for many years, and it's hard to get in-house attorneys to go in for the same reason.
00:17:49 Randolph Sergent
It's like they go to work, they go home to their families.
00:17:51 Randolph Sergent
You're like, you should do this extra.
00:17:53 Randolph Sergent
You need to grow.
00:17:55 Randolph Sergent
because one day you're going to want an opportunity that's not the thing that's literally in front of you.
00:17:59 Randolph Sergent
So I'd see people take me seriously about that.
00:18:03 Randolph Sergent
It's good for folks to get out in the audit field, learn something new.
00:18:06 Randolph Sergent
I'd say I encourage people also to become involved in their professions, professional associations, and build their network for the same reasons.
00:18:14 Christina Brune
Very good advice.
00:18:15 Christina Brune
So
00:18:16 Christina Brune
Do other leaders sometimes underestimate the value of truly understanding the functions that they're responsible for supporting?
00:18:24 Randolph Sergent
I would say yes, in the sense that every organization has.
00:18:27 Randolph Sergent
You have a range of leaders.
00:18:29 Randolph Sergent
You have good ones and you have bad ones.
00:18:31 Randolph Sergent
And there's some short-term thinking that you see sometimes, like a leader looks at the team and they look at the five items that they have to do.
00:18:38 Randolph Sergent
And then they say, I only need
00:18:40 Randolph Sergent
my team to understand these five items, and therefore we will most efficiently accomplish our five items.
00:18:47 Randolph Sergent
But as a leader, your job is generally not to do five items, right?
00:18:50 Randolph Sergent
Your job as a leader is to move the organization forward.
00:18:54 Randolph Sergent
And maybe there are five key things that you have to do right now with your team, but that's not the future, that's not all time.
00:19:01 Randolph Sergent
And how you do those things is going to be greatly enhanced by the quality of the people that you have.
00:19:07 Randolph Sergent
So there are leaders with short-term thinking that are not
00:19:11 Randolph Sergent
investing appropriately in their team from day-to-day.
00:19:14 Randolph Sergent
To me, that sort of investment is really an ongoing process.
00:19:16 Randolph Sergent
You do a certain amount every year, the same way you contribute a certain amount to your 401k.
00:19:21 Randolph Sergent
You don't say, I'll just do it all at the end.
00:19:24 Randolph Sergent
right?
00:19:24 Randolph Sergent
You have to do it as you go along.
00:19:26 Randolph Sergent
So yes, I'd say it varies.
00:19:28 Randolph Sergent
Good leaders are bad.
00:19:28 Randolph Sergent
But good leaders invariably, I think, want opportunities for their team members to grow.
00:19:33 Randolph Sergent
They want opportunities for their team members.
00:19:35 Randolph Sergent
Look, I hate to lose somebody at CareFirst, but if somebody has a good opportunity and I've helped develop somebody and they can move on, that's not necessarily a bad thing to me, right?
00:19:43 Randolph Sergent
I'm sorry to lose someone.
00:19:44 Randolph Sergent
I don't have to develop somebody new, but nobody wants a team of people who couldn't get a job somewhere else, right?
00:19:53 Christina Brune
Would you say that that's changed over time?
00:19:55 Christina Brune
You think it's more important in today's environment than it was, say, like 10 years ago?
00:19:59 Randolph Sergent
I do, actually.
00:20:00 Randolph Sergent
That's what I keep, I've told my team is specifically, don't assume that I'm never going to let you go.
00:20:05 Randolph Sergent
Look, I don't want to.
00:20:06 Randolph Sergent
I love you guys, but it's a world where we all have our careers and our skill sets and our portfolios, and we don't know.
00:20:14 Randolph Sergent
We're in health insurance.
00:20:15 Randolph Sergent
Healthcare system is very expensive.
00:20:18 Randolph Sergent
It is changing rapidly.
00:20:20 Randolph Sergent
The insurance, the payment system for healthcare is changing rapidly.
00:20:23 Randolph Sergent
rapidly, and there's regulation changes, there's technology changes, artificial intelligence is coming in.
00:20:31 Randolph Sergent
Every one of the, there's no part of my industry from year to year that isn't undergoing change, which means every one of our jobs is changing from day-to-day.
00:20:40 Randolph Sergent
You need to be thinking of yourself as I am a very small firm of one person who's developing the skill sets to be valuable here or somewhere else, because we all have our missions and lives, we all have our families to support.
00:20:52 Randolph Sergent
So I think looking at it both as a leader, I want the best developed people, but looking at it from the perspective of my folks themselves, I want them to be in a position of not being afraid of every change that comes down the pike, because
00:21:05 Randolph Sergent
It's going to change whether or not, how we feel about the change isn't going to dictate whether it happens.
00:21:10 Randolph Sergent
So the best way to accommodate that really is build your skill set, stay current, keep growing.
00:21:16 Christina Brune
Great.
00:21:17 Christina Brune
So what would you say to another executive who works closely with internal auditing but has never considered pursuing this type of education or development or certification for themselves?
00:21:29 Randolph Sergent
That's an interesting question.
00:21:31 Randolph Sergent
Nobody has asked me that.
00:21:33 Randolph Sergent
I would ask them what they wanted to do with it and what were they trying to understand.
00:21:38 Randolph Sergent
Because there's a number of places where they perhaps get in the CIA, they don't work enough with audit for it to make sense.
00:21:45 Randolph Sergent
But if they wanted to branch out or if somebody was younger and they wanted to get into audit from a different field, a different part of the company, like if you really looked at what the auditors did and you had a good, strong business background, that would be one way, I think, of evidencing interest in showing that you understand.
00:22:03 Randolph Sergent
what audit does.
00:22:04 Randolph Sergent
I think that's the biggest piece of it.
00:22:06 Randolph Sergent
I think other areas that are related, it's like I said, I was working with audit to such a degree.
00:22:11 Randolph Sergent
If you're a compliance officer and you wanted to get the CIA, I think that would be excellent because at least in our company, the compliance team and the audit team,
00:22:20 Randolph Sergent
they're different parts of the three lines, but they're working very closely together in terms of handing off which risk is being monitored by compliance versus set for an audit by the audit team.
00:22:32 Randolph Sergent
So I think that would be a good growth opportunity.
00:22:34 Randolph Sergent
So I think I would ask them, what is it that they want to get out of it?
00:22:38 Randolph Sergent
How does it fit in their career plans?
00:22:39 Randolph Sergent
And for folks that either would like to move into audit or work deeply with setting the planning and the goals collectively with the audit team, I think it may make sense.
00:22:49 Christina Brune
That's a great segue.
00:22:50 Christina Brune
I was going to ask you a little bit about our CIA challenge exam.
00:22:55 Christina Brune
And if you're aware of it, it's really an opportunity for experienced professionals to, it expands access for experienced professionals to obtain the CIA through a one-part rigorous exam, as opposed to the traditional three-part exam that you took.
00:23:13 Christina Brune
So I'm wondering if something like that was available to you at the time that you started this journey, would you have perhaps gone the one part or do you like breaking it down to a three-part exam?
00:23:25 Randolph Sergent
I think for me, I would have done the three-part, but I think the challenge exam is an excellent idea though.
00:23:31 Randolph Sergent
And the reason is for me is I'm not really an auditor, right?
00:23:34 Randolph Sergent
I had seen it from the outside.
00:23:36 Randolph Sergent
If I do the short exam, I might miss something.
00:23:39 Randolph Sergent
But if you've been in the, like I have,
00:23:43 Randolph Sergent
a member of my team who's planning to take the challenge exam in September, I believe.
00:23:48 Randolph Sergent
And he's been an auditor for many years.
00:23:51 Randolph Sergent
I think it's an excellent idea to give away for somebody that has worked inside of a corporation for many years, like I mentioned before, knows the strategic planning process and where audit fits in with the other business processes.
00:24:04 Randolph Sergent
It makes real sense that there could be a short or rigorous exam that
00:24:10 Randolph Sergent
acknowledges the fact that many of those basic skill sets should have been mastered just through somebody's job.
00:24:15 Randolph Sergent
For me, I might have gone the opposite way, saying, well, you don't know what you don't know.
00:24:19 Randolph Sergent
You're looking from the outside looking in.
00:24:21 Randolph Sergent
So I would probably still take the three-parter.
00:24:23 Randolph Sergent
But for the key folks, I think, on my team who has several years of experience, I would encourage, I think that's a great opportunity for them.
00:24:31 Randolph Sergent
And I will probably be having some conversations along that line.
00:24:34 Christina Brune
All right, wonderful.
00:24:35 Christina Brune
Well said.
00:24:35 Christina Brune
We've reached the end of my questions.
00:24:38 Christina Brune
Was there anything else that you'd like to share that maybe I didn't ask already?
00:24:42 Randolph Sergent
I would say...
00:24:44 Randolph Sergent
The theme that you've heard from me about professional development, it's genuine.
00:24:48 Randolph Sergent
I mean, it's real.
00:24:49 Randolph Sergent
I talk about this all the time because I really find the folks that delve into their career and they know why they're doing what they're doing, not just collecting a paycheck, but they really genuinely like what they're doing.
00:25:01 Randolph Sergent
I think that's important.
00:25:01 Randolph Sergent
It's important to your quality of life.
00:25:03 Randolph Sergent
It's important to your contribution to the world and how you feel about it.
00:25:07 Randolph Sergent
I would just encourage everyone, we all get lazy.
00:25:10 Randolph Sergent
We all get in a rut from time to time.
00:25:13 Randolph Sergent
Look at it as the
00:25:14 Randolph Sergent
The time we have, it's an opportunity and a resource.
00:25:16 Randolph Sergent
And I'd say never turn down the chance to learn something because it's incredibly rewarding.
00:25:21 Christina Brune
All right, fantastic.
00:25:23 Christina Brune
Thank you so much again for your time today.
00:25:25 Christina Brune
Randy, it was wonderful talking with you.
00:25:28 Randolph Sergent
Thank you.
00:25:28 Randolph Sergent
It was my pleasure.
00:25:30 The IIA
Earning the CIA usually means 3 separate exams, but it doesn't have to.
00:25:36 The IIA
The CIA Challenge exam is designed for experienced professionals who already hold a CPA, CISA,
00:25:42 The IIA
CISA, or have a background in internal audit.
00:25:45 The IIA
You qualify through one of three pathways, including a pilot option for people with 10 plus years of experience.
00:25:52 The IIA
That pilot closes September 30th, 2026, so don't sleep on it.
00:25:57 The IIA
Becker's study materials can help you prepare for this exam, and if you're interested, you can find a link to the challenge exam in the show notes.
00:26:05 The IIA
If you like this podcast, please subscribe and rate us.
00:26:08 The IIA
You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
00:26:11 The IIA
You can also catch other episodes on YouTube or at the IIA.org.
00:26:15 The IIA
That's T-H-E-I-I-A.org.
